Girah cheat - podrobnosti

    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
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      Předpokládám, že hodně z vás zaznamenalo dnešní rozruch kolem toho, že portugalská pokerová ikona Girah má na svědomí podvody v online pokeru za desetitisíce dolarů.

      Pár podrobností (z 2+2 fora)

      JAK TO ZAČALO
      - Girah se připojuje do skupiny TOP hráčů a diskutuje s nimi strategie po skypu. TOP hráči jsou ohromeni jeho skillem
      - Girah vytváří druhou skype skupinu pro diskuze strategií a sweat sessions
      - Girah přesvědčuje svoje přátele jako je MossBoss aby hráli s hráčem sauron1989. Girah tvrdí že sauron1989 je fish. Girah sweatuje svoje přátele v průběhu hry se sauronem1989
      - sauron1989 vyhrává více než 30k bucks od Girahových přátel
      - sauronův a Girahův Skype se rozsvěcuje online a offline ve stejnou dobu
      - Mossboss začne celou věc vyšetřovat a Girah se přiznává ke scumu a slibuje zaplatit peníze, o které svoje přátele okradl a odškodné dalších 30k všem poškozeným hráčům

      GIRAHOVA OMLUVA
      - Girah tvrdí, že ho navedl "přítel kterého přivedl na poker"
      - říká že jeho souhlas s podvodem byla směsice "viny a hlouposti"
      - omlouvá se za podvod a slibuje odškodnit všechny poškozené hráče

      reakce JNYCa
      - byl podveden, jeho story se podobá všem ostatním
      - říká že TooCurious mu napsal že Girah asi podváděl
      - oslovili iPoker a Merge; řekli své podezřením Dogovi a Junglemanovi
      - Girah tvrdí že sauron1989 a dollarman, další podvodný učet, jsou jedna osoba, girahův "bohatý přítel"
      - Dog říka na skypu že Girah se přiznal a vrátí peníze
      - Dog říká že on a Jungleman odškodní oběti pokud to Girah neudělá sám
      - Dog říká by raději nechtěl aby se celá věc dostala na veřejnost a naléhá na ututlání celé věci
      - Dog také brání Giraha, a říká že byl jenom mladý a hloupý na to aby si uvědomil co dělá
      - Dog a Jungleman přiznávají že podporovali Giraha na high stakes poker, ale odmítají jakékoliv spojení s podvodem
      - "jediná věc o kterou Dogovi šlo byla jeho reputace"
      - MossBoss garantuje že vše co říká výše je pravda

      DŮSLEDKY PRO GIRAHA
      - už není Lock Poker Pro
      - byl vyhozen z PokerStrategy.com

      OSTATNÍ KOMENTÁŘE HRÁČŮ
      - imfromsweden: potvrzuje podvod a tvrdí že je také obětí
      - Dog: tohle by od Giraha nečekal. Do Portugalska s ním bydlet nepůjde. říká že "nikdo z nás kdo podporovali Joseho neměl tušení o tomto"
      - sauce123: "to je k neuvěření", říká že Girah ho naváděl Skypu aby si "depozitnul na ipoker a hrál proti té agrofishce sauron1989 na 50/100"
      - Mossboss: říká že iPoker hráč maxkatz1 mu píše že byl taky podveden stejným způsobem
      - kjemmy: byl taky podveden, potvrzuje stejný průběh

      IVVAEN KOMENTUJE
      - Girah "se necítil nijak špatně a přiznal se", nejdřív ale lhal, zapíral, lhal, zapíral, lhal, zapíral atd.
      - Girah říká na Skype hráčům aby ho neprozrazovali protože by měli myslet na "jeho reputaci", tj. neměli by ho prozradit protože by ho opustili sponzoři
      - říká že Girah hrál na Toshisanův učet na iPokeru, o kterém Girah říká že je Dogův

      MAXKATZ1 KOMENTUJE
      - oslovil Giraha aby ho koučoval a tvrdí že Girah je hodně špatný coach
      - Girah ale měl, z nepochopitelných důvodu, velký zájem o společné sweat sessions
      - prohrál 15k proti sauron1989
      - slyšel že Girah přesvědčil jiného iPoker rega aby s ním sweatoval a přitom prohrál 8 BI na 10-20 proti sauron1989

      SPEKULACE/TEORIE
      - Girah lhal o své výhře $1.8M a tom, že byl podveden o $250k
      - sám Girah založil téma "Looking for Portuguese Poker Prodigy" (hledáme portugalskou pokerovou ikonu) aby se proslavil
      - celá věc začíná nabírat velkých rozměrů, dotýká se dalších a dalších hráčů

      GIRAHovy učty
      - Ongame: IfOnlYouKnew
      - iPoker: Toshisan
  • 93 odpovědí
    • LoKiCZ
      LoKiCZ
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      Tak to se dlouho u PS neohral. Nedavno byl prece clanek o tom, jak ho PS slavnostne nabrali.

      Jinak jestli to je vsechno pravda (vypada na 95,48% ze ANO) tak je to peknej humus a meli by mu smazat vsechny ucty a dozivotni ban. Takto podvadet vlastni "pratele" a zname, to je moc.
    • qkj
      qkj
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      tady podvodnik, legenda ivey si musi pujcovat, aby mel za co hrat... jeste mi reknete, ze nanonoko si ty grafy kresli, a ja na to seru a jdu domu :D
    • matusko
      matusko
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      qkj původně napsal
      tady podvodnik, legenda ivey si musi pujcovat, aby mel za co hrat... jeste mi reknete, ze nanonoko si ty grafy kresli, a ja na to seru a jdu domu :D
      :D

      Jinak me se to cele nejak nezda. Cely ten jeho pribeh+tenhle "skandal" nedava zadny smysl. Skoro jakoby tohle cele mel naplanovane s nejakym ucelem. Mozna zbytecne leveluju, ale totalne to nedava smysl.
    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
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      jsem nějak onemocněl a nemůžu spát, tak pročítám fora o Girahovi..

      Taky jsem se divil a myslel si že by to nemusela být pravda.. Ale Girah se přiznal už. A mrkněte na tyhle 2 posty od poškozených: 1) ivvaen


      Originally Posted by ivvaen View Post
      I was in the skype group and can safely assume that Jose tried to set me up for a scam as well. He is the nut low scum and can never be forgiven. I want to clear some things up. First of all, ARE YOU ****ING KIDDING ME:



      This is so immensely false and infuriating. Jose did not feel bad and confess. We had gathered lots of evidence and he caught wind of it. He lied and denied , lied and denied and lied and denied some more. This cant be stated enough. He used all sorts of arguments about how well we know him, how much strat he has posted, “what would I gain?”, “youre my friends” etc. He absolutely tried to deny this for as long as he could and did NOT come clean out of guilt like he claims here. FU Jose you scum, I don’t ever wanna hear about you or see your face ever again. I hope you quit poker and never make a cent from it ever again. SCUM!

      Furthermore, from Jose’s conversations about this on Skype he is NOT as sorry about this as he proclaims. He even had the balls to say this last night when we informed him we were going public asap:

      [01:25:17] josé maria macedo: stop thinking so much about your reps
      [01:25:20] josé maria macedo: and think about mine
      [01:25:22] josé maria macedo: for one second

      Once again, are you ****ing kidding me????? This kid does not grasp what he has done.

      Secondly, this friend story has to be a load of crap. For example, Jose claimed on Skype that Merge wouldn’t detect the cheating by looking at IPs as his friend was online by the use of a mobile internet 3g pen. Why, then, did Sauron disconnect at the same time as Jose, who was on his normal internet connection?

      Now, when it comes to the sweating. The point of it was to rail in real time and comment after. Personally, I never got sweated by anyone, but I sweated Jose playing a random fish one time. I did comment in real time on hands and I acknowledge that this is wrong and I should not have done it. It was not my intention when talking about sweating in the first place, and I consider it a mistake and will never do it again. This was the only time I have been involved in any type of sweating as long as I have played poker. From talks with the other guys it seems like they all merely sweated and that any real time communication was extremely limited. I believe this.

      I leave you with this gem from the Portuguese Russ Hamilton who is so so sorry for what he has done:

      [16:00:16] josé maria macedo: i assume you all know this
      [16:00:24] josé maria macedo: but if it goes public, both mysponsors are dropping me
      [16:02:45] XXXXX: yeah they're aware
      [16:03:16] josé maria macedo: ah, really?
      [16:03:20] josé maria macedo: damn
      [16:05:28] josé maria macedo: theyreally know that both sponsors will drop me?
      [16:05:35] josé maria macedo: and still want to?

      a 2) ilrg:


      Originally Posted by ilrg View Post
      I was gonna post this today... Jose scammed me for atleast 15k on ipoker.

      On 28th of June I contacted Yoan Gaidov from hand4hand.net about coaching with Jose Maria Machedo, the so called portuguese poker prodigy. He gave me his Skype info and I added him. He said that he would talk with Jose and forward my information to him. He told me there was a waiting list of like 50 players.
      On 29th of June he gave me Joses Skype info and I added him. From that day I would try to contact Jose about coaching. He would ignore me first but then after like 2 weeks we finally scheduled a session. I filled out his questionnaire and was good to go. He wouldnt show up to the first session and also missed the 2nd one we scheduled making up excuses. Then he apologized and said he would make it up by coaching me for free for 2 sessions.
      On 07/17 we had finally our first session where we talked about some theory. The session was nothing special and I didn,t get the impression that he is as awesome as everyone seems to think he is. He basically send me the links to the hands he posted on 2p2 (also the hands he made his first video for pokerstrategy) and talked about them. He told me to prepare some conceptual hands and send me to him. I would do that but he never really analyzed them. He would then ignore me again for some days and when our next session was due he delayed it during to having so much stress because of his first video being released.
      At this time I was playing almost only on pokerstars and partypoker. On 07/28 I would started playing on ipoker on my old account (maxkatz1) I haven't played there for a while. Jose knew my name there since he asked me on 07/17 about it and. All of a sudden Jose started to show an unreal amount of interest to sweating me. After bascially ignoring me for over 3 weeks and hardly doing anything that can be considered coaching he would suggest to sweat me up to 3-4 times a day starting on 07/31. I played up to 9 tables of 6 max on ipoker.

      Basically he wanted me to play ongame or ipoker during our sweatsessions. He told me his nick on ipoker is toshisan. Pretty strange if you look it up on ptr - plays low - midstakes hu.
      He told me that his ongame account was frozen and that he thinks that games on ongame are great so I should play there and asked me about what my nick there is.
      Ok so now the fun part begins. After starting the sweatsession a guy named sauron1989 would sit with me at every table he could at 10-20. He would make some garbage plays (coldcall crap pf v me - make some stupid bluff) then type that he is tilted in chat and ask me to move up in stakes).
      Jose told me that he played him for over 3k hands and that he thinks that sauron is a huge fish. He told me he lost like 15k to him at 25-50 but will play him again since hes got really good reads on him. He also encouraged me to start 10-20 games with sauron. I lost about 15 k to sauron on the 3 days where Jose did sweat me.
      He would spazz here and there but other than that he was playing in god mode - calling every single bluff of mine. Jose tried to encourage me to play sauron hu and also asked why I won't play him at 25-50.
      After sking him several times he finally agreed that I can sweat him and he played about 45 minutes on merge on his girah account. Before and after the session he was asking me again and again if he can sweat me. He was never really interested in analyzing any hands. I got suspicious after getting crushed by sauron 3 days in a row and asked a friend of mine (mdma) about his opinion. He told me that he has read some interesting stuff on a swedish pokerforum a while ago. Basically Jose asked an ipoker reg to sweat him when he played a fish hu. During that session he lost 8 buins or so on on 10-20. Guess to whom he lost? Sauron 1989!
      Toshisan has not a single hand played v Sauron1989 according to ptr. Jose asked me to play Sauron from my account since hes getting no action from him. He asked me if he can sit in 4 handed with Sauron1989, me and geeforce1. I said sure but he wouldn't. Then telling me that his ipoker account is blocked cause Hasseeb locked in.
      So it all looks pretty strange. First he ignores me and doesn't wann do any coaching. As soon as he sees me playing on ipoker he can't get enough of sweating me. As soon as I sit at ipoker Sauron sits at very table of mine at 10-20 with position and plays in godmode. His ongame account is blocked. His ipoker account is blocked. His moneybookers deposit limit is reached so he cant make a new account and deposit.
    • Cornie4ever
      Cornie4ever
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      Vyjádření dvou high stakes regů Haseeba a Junglemana. Říkají, že jsou šokování a okamžitě přerušují všechny vazby s Girahem.

      Haseeb aka Dog is head


      Hey guys,

      This whole situation has come as a huge surprise to all of us who've been supporting Jose. No one ever imagined he could do something like this, and honestly I still have difficulty understanding his motives. We've been traveling to Europe (Jungle and I have been in Gibraltar for the last few days) and as such, I had to be very brief, with having to wade through all of the commotion in what's happened from every end. Since Jungle and I decided that we no longer can be with Jose after the way he's betrayed our trust, we have changed our plans from Portugal and are now trying to sort out another place to live within Europe. This whole situation is a huge cluster**** to say the least.

      Right now it's very difficult for me to spend a lot of time on 2p2, but as I've heard that the rumors and speculation are running rampant, I will say this and I will say it as emphatically and clearly as I can. None of us who supported Jose had any idea about any of this. None of us. We supported Jose and believed in him singlemindedly, I will admit that. I personally had a very strong relationship with the kid. I don't know why, but none of us who believed in him ever imagined he had it in him to be so greedy and dishonest to do something like this. Clearly, we were wrong, and as was I to place our faith in him. What he did was really ****ed up and inexcusable. I may be able to write more once Jungle and I secure a place to live and lay our heads, but for the moment we are very all over the place. But for everyone who thinks that there is some huge conspiracy or that Jose is a puppet for some high stakes scamming ring - get a ****ing grip, ffs.

      Suffice it to say, the OP speaks for itself. I wish the best to all of the victims in dealing with this.

      Haseeb
      Daniel Cates aka Jungleman


      "Hey all, this has been about as weird and surprising to me and the other high stakes guys who know Jose as it has been for everyone else. I was told he was 100% trustworthy and he seemed like the type to be so, so I never questioned his integrity. I still don't really understand why he not only scammed people in one of the scummiest ways possible, but also decided to risk his whole career for a seemingly small amount... Clearly I made a mistake in trusting him, and now question our relationship as a whole.

      Haseeb and I are in Europe still trying to get settled in to play online once again, we have talked about the situation and we can't abide by what he did, so we can't live with him in Portugal and I can no longer consider him my student.

      Again this is all really ridiculous, I and the high stakes players who supported him in the past never would have imagined he would do this. GL to all those who got scammed."
    • LoKiCZ
      LoKiCZ
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      Tak to je teda mazec. Pekne si to posral chlapec.
    • Cornie4ever
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      další zajímavá výpověď z 2+2

      JnyC z Girahovi studijní skupiny


      Originally Posted by JnyC
      So this is a very long thread and I am not going to read through all of it. Below is my account of everything that has happened.

      Girah invites me to a skype strategy group. This was probably a 4-6 weeks after black friday. During this time, I was playing very little poker and was almost non-existent in the group. I didn't participate in much strategy discussions nor any sweat sessions.

      At some point, I log in and Girah and Toocurious are talking about a fish named dollarman223. TooCurious mentions that this fish plays terribly preflop but seems to 'own' him postflop and that he plays 25-50+. Girah pushes me to play dollarman. TooCurious is horrible at poker, so I decide to play dollarman. We play a short session of 1 table of 25-50 where I end up winning. During this time Girah is messaging me on skype but not viewing my screen. Dollarman leaves only to return in a short while. We begin playing another session during which Girah presses me very hard to allow him to 'sweat' me via teamviwer. Reluctantly, I agree.

      I want to stress that this is the first and last time I have allowed anyone to 'sweat' me at my regular stakes. I have allowed students to watch me play much lower stakes and ask questions later - but that is where my 'sweating' experience ends.


      Dollarman and I play another short session, this time with Girah watching via TV. I run numerous suicide bluffs, all of which work and end up winning about 4k overall. Dollarman becomes 'tilted' and asks to play 50-100 deep. I decline. He asks to play at a different time and we exchange e-mails. Over the next 2 weeks, dollarman e-mails me several times asking to play 2 tables of 50-100 deep. Over the same time period, Jose becomes super insistent that I play dollarman and allow him to TV. It becomes almost an obsession for him. He is also insistent that TooCurious play dollarman and allow him to TV and that the European guys in the group who play on ipoker play sauron.

      This goes on until toocurious messages me and says he believes that Girah is cheating. It is decided that we contact ipoker and merge to try and collect some hard evidence and look for links between Girah and dollarman. One of the guys ends up contacting Sauce and Dogishead.

      While we waited for responses, one or more of the group members pressed Girah for information. I was not involved in any of the discussions with Girah, as I have had very little contact with him since TooCurious brought up these allegations but I did read through the chat transcripts that were posted. It was clear that Girah knew that he was caught as he had come up with a story that his 'real life frined' super used him. This story was sent to at least 3 people in the group, myself included. Following this he admitted to ToOCurious that dollarman and sauron are the same person and that it is his rich friend from school and that "sometimes" he played at his house. A bunch of other BS followed.

      The next day(?) Dogishead enters our skype chat and says that Girah confessed to him that this cheating took place. Prior to this, Girah did not confess to me nor anyone else within the group as far as I know. In any case, Dog says he will get back the money of those who lost it. In fact, he gave his word that if Jose didn't pay then he and Jungleman would. He then asks if we are going to go public with this and mentions that it's up to us, but he would rather it didn't go public. He mentions that they were going to go live with him...but if this gets out then they can't do that anymore...implying that if this wasn't outed they would still live together(?). He continues by taking on the role of big brother and almost defending Girah by saying that he's young and stupid and that while what he did was scummy, he doesn't think that he's a bad person and a whole bunch of other comments that rubbed me the wrong way.

      During these conversations, Dog admitted that both he and Jungleman back Girah for highstakes games. This leads me to believe that either Dog or Jungleman were the mysterious backer who logged in to play PLO during the Lock Challenge. Jose also mentioned that one of the ipoker accounts he uses is in Dog's name. To quote Dog "draw your own conclusions".

      Dog was very insistent that we hold off on making any posts before he had a chance to deal with this situation as both Jungle and him had "strong ties" to Jose. He also wanted us to wait and "confront" Jose and let him "explain himself" and other completely asinine kindergarten BS.


      It became apparent (at least to me) that the only thing Dog cared about was his reputation, not about what his "very close" friend did, not about the people who were cheated - only that he's not portrayed in any way that could damage him. He confirmed this yesterday when, upon learning that all of the above would be posted, came into the skype group and said that if this was mentioned, "there is NO way [they] can agree to bank transfer the money".

      According to Dog, in terms of reimbursement, Jungleman was going to bank wire funds to Moss who would distribute them to those who were cheated. I don't know if this is still the plan or if this has happened yet since I am not owed. It is a complete mess and it is possible that Girah may be repaying the funds via Lock.
    • Cornie4ever
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      matusko původně napsal
      qkj původně napsal
      tady podvodnik, legenda ivey si musi pujcovat, aby mel za co hrat... jeste mi reknete, ze nanonoko si ty grafy kresli, a ja na to seru a jdu domu :D
      :D

      Jinak me se to cele nejak nezda. Cely ten jeho pribeh+tenhle "skandal" nedava zadny smysl. Skoro jakoby tohle cele mel naplanovane s nejakym ucelem. Mozna zbytecne leveluju, ale totalne to nedava smysl.
      na 2+2 se to rozebírá víc a víc.. postlo se hodně konverzace ze skype channelu té studijní skupiny a Dog is head tam má hodně podezřelé posty.. nejdřív se snaží celou věc ututlat a přemluvit ostatní aby celou věc nerozmazávali s tím, že on a Jungleman případně uhradí všechny ztráty.

      za zmínku rovněž stojí to, že girah nikdy nezkusil podvést Dog is heada nebo Junglemana..

      začínají se množit různé konspirační teorie, tak si počkejme jak se to vyvine dál..
    • LoKiCZ
      LoKiCZ
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      Cornie4ever původně napsal
      na 2+2 se to rozebírá víc a víc.. postlo se hodně konverzace ze skype channelu té studijní skupiny a Dog is head tam má hodně podezřelé posty.. nejdřív se snaží celou věc ututlat a přemluvit ostatní aby celou věc nerozmazávali s tím, že on a Jungleman případně uhradí všechny ztráty.

      za zmínku rovněž stojí to, že girah nikdy nezkusil podvést Dog is heada nebo Junglemana..

      začínají se množit různé konspirační teorie, tak si počkejme jak se to vyvine dál..
      Mě přijde divný jak najednou Dog a Jungle rychle přispěchali s vyjádřením, že s tím nemají nic společného. Že by platilo to rčení o potrefené huse?
    • s0cru3l
      s0cru3l
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      nějak mě uniká slovo SWEATOVÁNÍ
    • Cornie4ever
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      sweatování znamená že někdo hraje a ty ho sleduješ (bud u něj přímo sedíš nebo přes program teamviewer který přenáší obraz tvého monitoru) a diskutuješ s ním handy..

      btw já už několik hodin čtu v kuse 2+2 (jsem nemocnej a nemůžu spát) takže pokud budete mít nějaký dotazy tak se ptejte =)
    • MaloHp
      MaloHp
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      To je docela mazec... Škoda, že se vždycky najdou lidi bez špetky charakteru. :f_o:
    • Johniiicek
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      Cornie4ever původně napsal
      sweatování znamená že někdo hraje a ty ho sleduješ (bud u něj přímo sedíš nebo přes program teamviewer který přenáší obraz tvého monitoru) a diskutuješ s ním handy..

      btw já už několik hodin čtu v kuse 2+2 (jsem nemocnej a nemůžu spát) takže pokud budete mít nějaký dotazy tak se ptejte =)
      Jaký je rozdíl oproti railování Pavle? - vidíš i jeho karty?

      A jinak by mě zajímalo "jak moc je to OK" , protože jsem slyšel - please dont ask where - "zákulisní pravidlo" že jakmile je hráč je na finalu/těsně před většího turnaje tak sním jeho kroky k dohrání finalu diskutuje XY lidí po skypu, mikogo apod...
    • Bartyx
      Bartyx
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      Tak mě přijde ta reakce junglemana pochopitelná. On si potřebuje udržet reputaci a pokud v jednu chvíli oznámí, že budou spolu bydlet a pak vyplave tohle, nedivím se, že se snaží všechno urovnat. Přijde mi to dost čestný. Něco jako kdybych třeba v práci doporučil nějakýho kamaráda, ten tam potom něco ukradl, tak bych taky cítil zodpovědnost :-)
    • cimprcampr
      cimprcampr
      Bronz
      Registrace: 10.05.2011 Příspěvky: 1,315
      Hlavně je mi Junglemana líto, on se sand chudák neusadí. Do Kanady ho nepustili bo neměl víza, tak vymyslel, že se přestěhuje k Girahovi, a zase tohle. To jsem zvědavý, co vymyslí, kam příště.
    • Duncan737
      Duncan737
      Stříbro
      Registrace: 09.08.2010 Příspěvky: 3,229
      Padá hvězda, něco si přejte.

      Tak snad mu to za to stálo a samozřejmě to nemělo šanci vyplavat na povrch...

      btw je problém jen u mě nebo nejdou načítat videa i někomu jinému?
    • acceleration123
      acceleration123
      Zlato
      Registrace: 11.12.2010 Příspěvky: 5,312
      Je to celý hodně zvláštní, taky jsem trochu pročítal 2p2 ... já prostě nerozumím, proč by někdo, kdo hraje nosebleeds potřeboval dělat podvod za 30k ... ale je to prostě hodně podivný.

      A u Junglemana se mi nějak nechce věřit, že by s tím měl něco společného, ten je už dlouho velmi uznávaným online hráčem a jeho pověst vždy byla dobrá ...
    • Bartyx
      Bartyx
      Bronz
      Registrace: 17.08.2010 Příspěvky: 257
      Duncan737 původně napsal


      btw je problém jen u mě nebo nejdou načítat videa i někomu jinému?
      Taky mi nejedou videa.
    • lolofon
      lolofon
      Bronz
      Registrace: 14.04.2009 Příspěvky: 1,088
      Bartyx původně napsal
      Tak mě přijde ta reakce junglemana pochopitelná. On si potřebuje udržet reputaci a pokud v jednu chvíli oznámí, že budou spolu bydlet a pak vyplave tohle, nedivím se, že se snaží všechno urovnat. Přijde mi to dost čestný. Něco jako kdybych třeba v práci doporučil nějakýho kamaráda, ten tam potom něco ukradl, tak bych taky cítil zodpovědnost :-)
      praveze mne pripadaju ti dvaja (dog a jungle) dost podozrivi, teda aspon z toho, co som precital. otazne je ale, preco to robili za tak malo penazi, ktovie, ci postupom casu nevyplava na povrch nieco ovela vacsie...

      v kazdom pripade bola to hlupost tych podvedenych, ze sa nechali sweatnut na tak vysokych stakes, museli mu velmi doverovat.

      inak by ma zaujimalo, je vlastne mozne za taketo nieco aj ist pred sud?